Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

Firepower 1 Changes

 Post subject: Firepower 1 Changes
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:30 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:09 am
Posts: 93
Location: Toronto, Canada
Did anyonse else find the rules changes in Firepower 1 (pg 12-14) to be, well... A bit rubbish?

When I first read them, I was instantly sold. Then I tested them out and found most of them to not add anything to the game and even, in several cases, ruin the intended feel of the game...

AT Shots: Any time you change the point value of units throughout the Armies Book, it is going to be frustrating (also, they misused the word "hence" in their explanation). The only really overpowered aspect of the Anti Tank rules is how they use Super Heavy Weapon targeting... So why not just say they follow the normal targeting restrictions of regular attacks and hit the closest stand that they can affect? Do that and they are largely in line with everything else for their point value. Heck, you could just count AT as a special ability (although this might make it too weak). Either way, there is no need to rewrite the point costs for four of the five armies in the game and add in brand new targeting rules that no other unit in the game has ever had.

Bunker Objectives: This waters down objective-hunting in a game that is otherwise all about scenarios... Why? Players should be encouraged to try to accomplish their missions instead of turning every game into a free for all. If bunkers are worth more than other objectives, then they will also be defended more enthusiastically by the opponent (and considering bunkers are the only objective that can "fight back," I don't think they are much better). In reality, the rule makes very little difference (-3.5 morale on average vs -5), makes no sense logically (why would a bunker be worth a variable amount anyway?), adds unnecessary randomness and reduces the tactical feel of the game.

Vortex Missiles: I take the last sentence to be errata, not a rules change, as it doesn't make sense that the weapon would cause death ray "hits" (after all why distinguish between types of hits?). However, the idea of limiting them to Titans is absurd. The Deathstrike Missile Launcher is a cool unit and reasonably balanced point-wise, as is the Ordinatus. Making a special class of weapons for these two units is ridiculous and completely unnecessary (as it is functionally identical anyway... 1d6 AT attacks or death ray attacks will almost always have the same result for ground units). It is a game of Epic... Everybody should be very well used to the idea of swathes of models being destroyed all at once.

Drop Pods: Why? Changes extremely little. Skip it.

Walkers: No. No no no no no. Are you telling me a Space Marine Dreadnought can move 15cm in the movement phase and then charge 30cm into combat in the assault phase? With those pudgy little legs? Are you joking? A dreadnought should only move 45cm in a turn if it is strapped to the back of a Vortex Missile (see above).

Flak: This rule says "using flak vehicles seems to be a waste of time unless you're protecting an immobile target like an artillery battery." So? This is how anti-air assets are actually used in real world deployment. I understand the desire to produce an invincible steel curtain around your entire army as they rumble across the battlefield, but there is absolutely no need to weaken air power in the game, no historical justification for this and not even a good game design reason. Choosing where to setup your air-defense zones is part of the fun of strategy... You can't have everything, so you have to work around your limited resources and capabilities. There is not a strong enough reason for this rules change.

Super Heavy Tanks: Again, no. Not only does this involve scribbling over the datafaxes in the Armies Book, but it is completely unnecessary. Super Heavy Tanks have a Damage Capacity of 4. The majority of them will be destroyed without ever having suffered a critical hit. For those that do take a critical hit, they have a close to 50% chance of not taking catastrophic damage. Those few that do take catastrophic damage are statistically likely to be on their last hit point anyway. This rule is not necessary.

Ambush Scenario: I cannot speak to this one much as I haven't played the ambush scenario enough to understand if it is truly unbalanced... I do find the idea of placing those objectives kind of an odd solution, but I'll refrain from comment until I give it a fair shot. So... Maybe ok?

War Engine Orders: This is the big one... The fact that war engines didn't use orders is a significant part of what made them feel so different from regular ground-pounders on the battlefield. Ground detachments are responsive, flexible, situationally aware and quick to maneuver. Titans should be slow, methodical and inexorable. They rumble slowly but surely across the battlefield, operating on their own sense of time and urgency. They should never be able to march. They cannot go on "overwatch" to increase their accuracy. They lay their onerous ordnance against their enemies, they do not care what is or is not underfoot. They just rumble onward, slow and steady. Not only do these modifications add an entire page of rules that significant modify the normal order system, they positively assassinate the cumbersome, ponderous and aloof feel of the mighty Titans.

Does anyone else just prefer E40k "as written"? A lot of these tweaks (in Firepower 1 and elsewhere as well) just feel to me like a game designer monkeying around with a masterpiece in order to reinvent the wheel. After all, what most people say they like about E40k is that it is a "complete" game... Indeed, in my experience, it plays best right out of the box!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Firepower 1 Changes
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:03 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:04 pm
Posts: 6094
Location: UK
Interesting post i've not played for sometime but find your opinion and view a reasoned one, from my perspective the game is great as written and really you can use the updates and additions or not it's up to the players. If you feel all or some of these changes are uneccessary then ignore them it's not as if Epic 40.000 is an official tournement rules set so go with what you prefer I always have.

I'd prefer the titans to function the same as all other formations in the game I don't like different rules for different units. So we had titans etc that moved and fired as normal formations. I always thought it odd that superheavy tanks and titans which are spearhead units went last when they should be out it front kicking ass.

As for anti tank yes just roll the anti tank dice the same as regular dice and hits can be allocated to the closest target it can effect. Anti tank is just another form of firepower but with a greater chance to hit.

Like to comment some more but it's been so long since I played so the memory is a little rusty.

_________________
Vanguard Miniatures

Link, http://vanguardminiatures.co.uk/

Stockist of:

Vanguard Miniatures
BattleGroup Helios
Onslaught Miniatures
Pyrkol Gaming Markers
Gregster's Lab
Microworld Games
Troublemaker Games


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Firepower 1 Changes
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 8:54 pm
Posts: 2279
Location: Cornwall
Thanks for the post, well reasoned arguments.

Id really like to get some more games of 3rd ed. Im so glad it came out just before i went to uni as it kept my interest alive for wargaming until i returned 15 years later. Loved it but only played a dozen or so games.

Personally i liked the titans acting last - lumbering about, your opponent trying to pile firepower into it before it got to unleash its full arsenal - great moments of tension.

I also remember land raiders being stupidly good with 2 AT shots (particularly as i was used to fielding 2 Companies in SM2) so im not surprised they got nerfed, but not sure if all AT weapons needed it. I kinda remember AT needing 6+ to hit infantry, but I'm not sure if that was our house rule to fix the problem?

But, yes plenty of flexibility for tinkering in a great set of core rules.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Firepower 1 Changes
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:11 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm
Posts: 2556
Location: UK
It's been a long time but I do remember that in our games my mate would field armies consisting mostly of land raiders and vortex missiles (slight exaggeration) so I'm pretty sure those were actual problems that needed to be fixed. I believe anti tank was just OP across the board, and still worth it even after the price hike.

I don't remember disliking any of the changes significantly, maybe the bunker one I felt a bit strange. For war engines I guess the intention was to reduce the feeling of two different games within the same game, which it did a little by the way they were separated. I thought it worked well afterwards.

Flak I also remember being an issue in the original rules but can't remember exactly why. Did they only get to fire if on special orders? So that basically wasted the rest of the detachment, and it wasn't generally possible to create specialised only flak detachments?

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Firepower 1 Changes
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:40 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:12 pm
Posts: 102
Location: Massachusetts, USA
I remember them being fairly well received at the time. More so than for later issues. Many of us thought of these as corrections, and base game + FP1 seemed pretty common.

AT shots: I also wonder if the increase in points was overkill, but like the change to placement of AT shots.

The main thing the Drop Pod rule does is limit you from doing Overwatch or March. Those make plenty of sense to me, and easily could have been part of the original game. I don't mind smaller adjustments made to a game.

Walkers: I like this, because of the terrain table. I don't think we ever remembered the rule about infantry doubling movement to get into assault. The dreadnought example seems a bit extreme, but I thought (when I remembered it) that the doubling rule was extreme. I would want to at least keep the terrain table part.

Flak: I have not used flyers enough, but I remember this being particularly well received. I think the E40K rules needed something to make the flyer rules more interesting. I felt E40K made the flyer miniatures feel pretty superfluous, and I'd like to import just a bit of the Epic Armageddon rules. Not the whole thing, but I felt they made them feel a bit less abstract. I love abstraction in games, but the flyers were too far, in my opinion.

I do think the super-heavies needed some work, but I don't like the fix. I feel it applies two changes where one would have been sufficient. Change the odds for the critical roll, but removing any further damage made criticals more boring. And they didn't address Eldar super-heavies. Maybe they were supposed to be more fragile, but what about the point value?

I don't have much opinion about war engine orders. I guess I feel mostly favorable, because they both give and take away. I think they do a good job of remaining within the Epic 40K system, while making War Engines more interesting. But I could live without.

andy


Last edited by andyskinner on Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Firepower 1 Changes
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:24 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:09 am
Posts: 93
Location: Toronto, Canada
andyskinner wrote:
Vortex: It is 1d6 Death Ray "shots", not "hits". That means each hit could still be saved. I'm fine with this. It makes a bigger difference when used against a War Engine.


Both "attacks" and "hits" can be saved. Calling them hits means they would already count as having hit (i.e. no need to roll 2+ for the death ray). Thus it makes no sense to specify whether it is a death ray "hit," a firepower "hit," an anti-tank "hit" or otherwise. A hit is a hit, the world around!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Firepower 1 Changes
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:44 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:12 pm
Posts: 102
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Sorry, I was sloppy with my words, enough to be wrong.

Death Ray "shots" have to hit on 2+. A hit is a hit. The article says "Death Ray shots", not "Death Ray hits".

Edit: Never mind. I just reread your article more slowly and see I'd missed your point. I thought you were saying that it was Death Ray hits. I agree that this is an errata, and it makes sense.

I still find that I'm overall welcoming to the FP 1 changes.

andy


Last edited by andyskinner on Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Firepower 1 Changes
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:59 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:12 pm
Posts: 102
Location: Massachusetts, USA
I just noticed that the Drop Pod rule just makes them consistent with flyers as transports.

andy


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net