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Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year

 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Roadkill, the only circumstances your formation will do nothing on a failed activation roll in EpicA is if it is a space craft or an aircraft, you're only allowed to spend a third of your points on these so I'm really not sure what game you've been playing?

If you fail the activation roll you're still left with 3 choices if activation, any of which you'll do automatically! Functionality the only thing failing an activation roll prevents you from doing is engaging in ff or cc. You can still move, or shoot, or marshal, in an objective based game like EA that's all you need to do to win or at least force a draw. But the likelihood of being constrained like this very low, there are records on the EUK website of over 100 tournament games I've played in over about a decade, I've probably played as many casual games, if not more.... what your describing has never happened to me or an opponent or at any of the events I've been to.

Now I have had games of smtl2 where I've put units down and taken them off again almost immediately due to massive unavoidable firepower.... Not going to have a go at the game though, I just found it a bit one dimensional for my liking.


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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:03 pm 
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No one says it like you L4 ;-) Don't know what happened there - spellcheck maybe?

Yep, the whole notion of "you miss your go" is a well known fun killer in board game design, and it is applicable here. If i had my way there would be a few small tweaks like the one Kyrt suggests to the EA rules l, but hey, in reality it never really seems to be a problem. One thing with the EA rules is that one formation or more importantly one failed activation rarely swings a game.
The exception being small games/minigeddon as mentioned by Elsmore.

Ironically (coming back to 3rd ed), that did have a suppression system where you only missed your move when you actually had BMs. Due to the phased turn structure i loved the way assaulting formations had to weather a turn of fire before testing for their assault activation, with defending units pouring in fire in order to put them off the whole idea of storming the barricades. Very evocative.



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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Blip wrote:
No one says it like you L4 ;-) Don't know what happened there - spellcheck maybe?


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It's nice to be remembered. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:16 pm 
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Hmm... As said above. You (almost) always get to do something, even if you fail. And you get one reroll with sup command. So not being able to use minis at all is just not happening.

I like fog of war mechanics. I don't really get the "for no reason" argument. Highly trained/motivated troops e.g. SM or Orkses don't even roll. Others can fail. Without having been directly targeted by enemy. Weirder things must have happened a gazillion times IRL.

Anyway, back to topic. Congratulations E40K, and your numerous permutations!

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 Post subject: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:45 am 
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Happy anniversary, Epic 40K! I must admit, having only dabbled in it, it still seems as interesting and unique as it always has to me. Some of those mechanics could easily be used in games with absurd numbers of plastic soldiers like, say, WH40K Apocalypse games... ;) The Morale system for determining game objectives always seemed like a nifty idea, too.

Thank ye for those with 1:1 scale battle experience for providing an interesting perspective, as usual! I do quite like the EA suppression and initiative system for reasons already mentioned here (including the fact that you can still do something if your unit fails the roll; even if your unit is broken, it can do something, though I'm surprised people don't complain more about how hard it can be to rally!). I suppose one point might be that modern professional militaries would likely have better Initiative than the Imperial Guard do.

One thing I like about E40K that EA lacks is the HQ chain of command system. I wonder if Legion 4 or others has experimented with systems to try to represent chain of command realistically (beyond what's already in the basic rules)?

For order counters, Legion 4, what exactly do you mean? As in, putting out hidden order counters for all formations at the start of the turn?

Long live E40K! (In fact, some fellow Epicists living not so far from me are almost exclusively E40K players)


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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:14 am 
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Thinking Stone wrote:
Happy anniversary, Epic 40K!

Long live E40K! (In fact, some fellow Epicists living not so far from me are almost exclusively E40K players)


Great to hear there are still dedicated E40k groups out there we should start a facebook page just for this version to gather the fans together, um may just do that myself this game needs more love.

I'd just need to find and invite such players which is the hard part.

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:57 pm 
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One thing I like about E40K that EA lacks is the HQ chain of command system. I wonder if Legion 4 or others has experimented with systems to try to represent chain of command realistically (beyond what's already in the basic rules)?

Well, one of the things that is seen is Epic it always does not reflect too well how modern Command & Communication would work generally. But I think part of that is what we see as Epic actually being WWII with hi-tech weapons & equipment and aliens of course. But most of those aliens could reflect a WWII human army to a point. However, that being said, generally E40K does an "acceptable" job reflecting a hi-tech WWII. With keeping it simple ... and not too complex to become ungainly for game play. E40K, IMO, probably has one of the "better" Command systems with have a very long Chain of Command. With command being transferred fairly easily to the 2d in Command on down. Adding the E40K Command system with E:A would probably be the better of systems.

And remember the "Fog of War". Sometimes units don't what they were ordered to do. For a variety of reasons. From Bad Commo to poor leadership, etc. However, again even if Epic was a better reflection of modern Command, Control & Communication, things still always do not go as planned. But generally very much better than in the past.


For order counters, Legion 4, what exactly do you mean? As in, putting out hidden order counters for all formations at the start of the turn?

Yes ... Both sides place inverted Order Counters next to each formation. As in SM1 & SM2. At the start of each turn. Then when formation is activated flip the counter and follow the order. Leave flipped Order Countesr in place to keep track of activations.

It's as close as "simultaneous" action as you can get IMO. Making both players think about what units have been activated and what they have done. And what units are yet to be activated and how do they fit you plans, affect the enemy, etc., etc. And use "Snap Fire" as well. As I have said, we added this to SM1 based on some other wargames we played in the past.

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:42 pm 
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Well, as many of have been in the hobby for quite some time now and have seen several different Epic systems, there is no doubt that each has their own ideas how a game should play, how armies should fight, and how game mechanics should work. And then there are serious gamers and not-serious gamers. I have bounced around between both over the years.

Being introduced to AT/SM1 first, I was simply BLOWN away with that game system, which you could argue, was several in one. AT first, then rules for infantry, vehicles, and robots to follow in White Dwarf, which were all more experimental really, to be refined in SM1, and then split between the existing detailed battle system, and the known as the Epic Battle System, which went on to evolve into SM2.

What I loved about the detailed damage system of SM1 though, was getting wrapped up in the micro part of the game versus the macro. I loved the scale, but still appreciated a individual model saving the day with a weak weapon system, or pulling off an impossible shot from a great distance. Those micro moments do slow down games, and believe me we needed several nights to play out large games, but I loved it and in part still do, although I know for many gamers that just isnt practical.

The worst part about AT/SM1 today, and even at the time, were all the supplemental White Dwarf articles scattered around the magazines. Easier to find today than back then, but its still a mess. SM2/TL was a reboot that helped bring everything closer together again.

I had to be dragged kicking and screaming to SM2/TL. The only reason I went was because my gaming buddies demanded it. At the time, I hated the simplified stats and lack of tactical options, but over time I could appreciate its faster playing time, and easy mechanics. Even today, if I were to introduce a new player to Epic, I would start out with SM2/TL first. SM2/TL might look like a cartoon as opposed to a wargame which is why I don't take the system too seriously, but it has the color from Games Workshop's Golden Years that I still miss in their games today. Not everyone likes that color too, and I understand that. Nevertheless, this was by far the most popular version of Epic before or since. I am very sure that if any game was to be 'reprinted' as it was, and re-released similar in scope, SM2/TL would be very popular.

When Epic 40k was released, I was initially repulsed like everyone else. I didn't want abstract. I loved the minis though, and actually bought a lot to replace my older ones. It wasn't until I bought just the rulebooks for dirt cheap because I was bored was I surprised by how creative some of the concepts were. There was valid logic behind causing more casualties yet still losing an assault. Or that aircraft essentially just came and went. I wasn't crazy about the short weapon ranges and firefights, and still aren't. But once I got the set (and I actually have bought several over the years, one brand new still sealed for $17 once), was I blown away by how much game was in that box. I still go back and forth on some things, and it isn't my favorite game either, but if I was asked to play I certainly wouldn't turn it down.

If you think about what comes in each starter set, or lack there one in the case of EA, think about what else you have to buy to expand on it.

In the case of AT/SM1, as much as I love Titans, battlefields are pretty empty without infantry and tanks, and infantry and tanks aren't as impressive without having Titans around. And some of the best stuff is located in the hard to find Codex Titanicus, and spread out across some 20 or so White Dwarf articles. Nevermind hunting down all the minis. I love the grit and detail of that game, but I recognize only the really motivated are going to enjoy getting into it.

SM2 is a pretty good box set, while a little vanilla on the miniatures, at least the rulebook expands the contents a bit. But the real meat is in the expansion box sets, as well as scattered across some of the later White Dwarfs as well. The Titan Legions set, while lacking a lot of options on its own, is still a fun an interesting accessory to the SM2 set. But its a lot to buy and track down.

Epic 40k on the other hand, not only comes with some really dynamic miniatures, but more importantly includes rules that covered just about all the former armies and minis. Yes a little got left out, but just from that Armies book, not only did you have to rules right there to expand, but the structure of the armies allowed you to build detachments from leftovers in your bitz box. That is unheard of from GW before or since. It is by far the best economical Epic purchase ever, even at today's ridiculous Ebay prices. That box set is a complete hobby all on its own.

EA, well we all know came with nothing, and many of the minis were a step back from what we had in Epic 40k. Not to mention the lack of variety in official armies released by GW. Yes, I could refer to fan made lists created on Word, but thats not what inspires me. I love flipping through books, reading the fluff, seeing the art. Its not all about the table-top to me. We all spend far more time reading and painting out minis than we actually do playing. And most of the time its the fluff, art, and pictures that inspire me to work on my hobby in the first place.

Mechanics-wise, all have their own pros and cons. And at this point I am not even sure a perfect Epic system could be created to please everyone. But what I dream of if we could ever get an Epic Mk V, is that it would come with a comprehensive box set like Epic 40k did, even though I know that will never happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:18 pm 
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Yes. SM1 really was a great system, I got it in '90. I then got AT, which came out before SM. But overall I was pretty impressed. Too bad they dropped it to go to SM2. And as I have said, IMO SM2/TL was the low point in Epic. However, it was supposed to be their best selling version of Epic. But it was not what I was looking for in game system.

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:45 pm 
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Lets make this group


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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:20 pm 
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Bogenverleih wrote:
Lets make this group


Which group, the E40k 3rd edition fan group?

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:34 am 
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here is the link to the Group. let´s get this started

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1004227353047038/


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